The following information is quoted from
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/tagm/tagm23.html
No original sources verifying this have been found of
which I am aware. The book quotes from an 1881 journal
entry, published in 1892 by Oliver B. Huntington, who
claimed Joseph Smith said there were moonmen. Huntington
would have been about eleven years of age at the time,
if he heard this from Joseph Smith personally, or even
if the idea came from someone else. In fact, indications
are that he heard it secondhand at best.
Van Hale answered the criticism against this
assertion in his pamphlet, How Could a Prophet Believe
in Moonmen? One excerpt:
Did Joseph Smith believe in an inhabited moon? From
the historical evidence now available the answer must
be: Not proven. But, all things considered, the
possibility, or probability, that he did cannot
reasonably be denied. For all others of that era the
question seems quite insignificant, especially given
contemporary beliefs. But in the case of Joseph Smith,
he claimed to be a prophet. Some extremists contend that
his claim demands that his knowledge in every area be
superior to that of others in his era. If he believed
any false notion of his day, so these critics say, his
credibility must be doubted. Others, not so demanding of
infallible insight in a prophet, would be more
comfortable with a description of God's revelation which
allowed for the human and the divine. As Rev. J. R.
Dummelow so aptly described the authors of the Bible, so
might one say of Joseph Smith:
"Though purified and ennobled by the influence of His
Holy Spirit, these men each had his own peculiarities of
manner and disposition—each with his own education or
want of education— each with his own way of looking at
things—each influenced differently from one another by
the different experiences and disciplines of his life.
Their inspiration did not involve a suspension of their
natural faculties; it did not even make them free from
earthly passion; it did not make them into machines—it
left them men.
"Therefore we find their knowledge sometimes no
higher than that of their contemporaries . . . . (J. R.
Dummelow, One Volume Bible Commentary, p. cxxxv)."
Dummelow's description of the author of Genesis is
equally applicable:
His scientific knowledge may be bounded by the
horizon of the age in which he lived, but the religious
truths he teaches are irrefutable and eternal (Ibid., p.
xxx).
Dummelow, who is not LDS, is considered to be one of
the foremost commentators on the Bible.
Biblical prophets sometimes apparently erred, but
that does not detract from their being men of God. Some
examples:
Jeremiah prophesied that king Zedekiah would "die in
peace" (Jer. 54:4-5)) but Zedekiah saw his sons slain,
was blinded, chained, and imprisoned, where he died (Jer.
52:10-11). Moses' pride kept him from entering the
promised land. Aaron made a golden calf. There was
contention between Paul and Bamabas and Paul and Peter.
Two apostles argued over who should sit on the right
hand of Jesus.
Prophets are human and have weaknesses. The Prophet
Joseph Smith said,
I told them [Church members] I was but a man, and
they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected
perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if
they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities
of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their
infirmities (HC 5:181).
Latter-day Saints do not believe their prophets are
infallible, not every word they utter always true. See
also commentary for Page 79, line 26. >>> everyone after Joseph
Smith himself heard everything seondhand at best.
Secondhand evidence is weak at best. After giving quotations from the
Hunnington Journal, you made the following statement:
>>>
Since man landed on the moon stories of "the man on the moon" have
remained the realm of children's stories and nursery rhymes. This
revelation has to be taken seriously as Joseph Smith confessed that
whatever he asked of the Father in the name of the Son, it was given.
Thus Joseph Smith credits this revelation to God.
>>>
There is no basis at all for your claim that Joseph Smith credited
his knowledge about "moonmen" to God.
First of all, you refer to the information from the Huntington
Journal as a "revelation". Yet, if we read from that Journal, as quoted
by you in your previous post, we read the following:
"As far back as 1837. I know that he said the moon was inhabited by
men...."
There is nothing in that journal entry, made by an old man many years
after the event he is reporting, that says or implies that Joseph Smith
was speaking as a prophet when he spoke of "moonmen"
In 1837 Oliver Hunnington was a young boy. How did he "know" that
Joseph Smith said the moon was inhabited by men? Did he hear it directly
from the Prophet? Or, did he hear from someone else who heard it from
the Prophet? Is that journal entry really second hand evidence, or is it
third hand or fourth hand evidence or more? The answer is that it was a
third hand statement by Huntington who got the information from Philo
Dibble. To read about the journal entry and a detailed discussion of
whether or not Joseph Smith said there were men on the moon go to
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/history/moonmen_van_hale.htm
You gave no evidence that Joseph Smith, did in fact, credit God as
the source of information about "moonmen". You gave an illogical
conclusion that since Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet everything he
said was from the Lord. Here is your statement:
"This revelation has to be taken seriously as Joseph Smith confessed
that whatever he asked of the Father in the name of the Son, it was
given. Thus Joseph Smith credits this revelation to God."
You gave nothing to justify your conclusion "Thus Joseph Smith
credits this revelation to God."
You seem to have the belief that if a man is a prophet, everything he
says is from the Lord, that he can never speak for himself and give his
opinions about topics. In effect you seem to believe that a prophet is
infallible. On the other hand, LDS believe there are times when a
prophet speaks for the Lord and other times when he speaks his opinions
on matters. ***The burden is on you, to prove to us that prophets always
speak for the Lord and never speak their own opinions.***
You spoke of prophecies of Joseph Smith:
>>>
"For the hour is nigh, and that which was spoken by mine apostles must
be fulfilled; for as they spoke so shall it come to pass; For I will
reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts
thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years,
and the wicked shall not stand." (Doctrine & Covenants 29:10,11, given
September, 1830)
Over 160 years have passed since the first prophecy was made yet
Jesus Christ has not returned. Given that we are told that the time is
"nigh" or "at hand" we can only assume that these prophecies have
failed, and thus are not of the LORD.
>>>
I hope, that you aren't claiming to read the mind of God! In terms of
our time of months and years, how do you know what the Lord meant by
"nigh" or "at hand"? How do you know that 160+ years is long enough to
have satisfied the Lord's meaning by "nigh" or "at hand"? You may be
willing to place your private interpretations on those terms, but I'm
not.
Then you gave a quotation that supposedly gave a definite time to the
coming of the Lord:
>>>
The following prophecies regarding the return of the Lord both place an
exact time upon His return.
* "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been
called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by
vision* and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a revelation of some of the
circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion -- our trials,
sufferings: and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He
had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who
went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if
necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the
vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh --
even thirty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the
Churches, vol. 2, p. 182, given February, 1835)
Jesus Christ did not return by February, 1891 [sic 1871], and over
100 years have passed without sign of His return.
>>>
Without having access to Vol. 2 of the History of the Church, I can't
comment on that quotation directly. Anti-Mormon literature is infamous
for taking quotations out of context.
Here is a link that discusses the statements of Joseph Smith about
the coming of Christ.
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/return.htm
You gave a quotation from Steinhouse's Rocky Mountain Saints about
the coming of Christ. That book, is a notorious anti-Mormon book, and
quotations from it have no value unless they have references to
reputable historical sources, sources that are available today.
>>>In the bible, God says
that if anyone ads to or takes away from his word then >>>they are a
false prophet. Now there are several differences between the >>>doctrine
and covenants and the 1833 book of commandments. Quotes from >>>that are
supposedly from God himself have been changed significantly. >>>Words
have been added, rearranged, and even taken away. I have yet to hear any
>>>explanation of why this is. Actually, God didn't say that
anyone adding to or taking away from his word.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the
prophecy of this book. If any man shall add unto these things, God
shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book;
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of
this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in
this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)
When John wrote those two verses, the Bible did not exist. It's
pretty clear that he was referring to the book that did exist, his book
of Revelation.
>>>section 84:1-5 of D&C makes Joseph Smith a false prophet.
Verses 1-4 state that the city New Jerusalem will be built in
Missouri. Verse 4 states the city will be built in "this generation". In
verse 5, the Lord states
"For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house
shall be built unto the Lord...."
I am not willing to be presumptuous and interpret the phrase "this
generation" to mean a generation from father to son, i.e. approximately
20 years. I am not willing to be presumptuous and interpret the phrase
to mean a longer period of time but still within the lifetime of Joseph
Smith, or even within the lifetime of Brigham Young or the other
presidents of the LDS church. We look forward to the building of that
city and are willing to let the Lord apply his own meaning to the phrase
"this generation".
>>> Section 4, verse 2 of book of commandments, God clearly says
that he will not >>>grant Joseph any more gifts. However, in chapter 5
verse 2 of D&C, it has been >>>re-written to account for the rest of
Smiths' supposed gifts.
Here is the Book of Commandments 4:2
"And now, behold this shall you say unto him:--I the Lord am God, and
I have given these things unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded
him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I
have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he
should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them
except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and
I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will
grant him no other gift."
Here is that section, spread over several sections, in the 1935 D&C.
"5:2And now, behold, this shall you say unto him--he who spake unto
you, said unto you: I, the Lord, am God, and I have given these things
unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and have commanded you that you
should stand as a witness of these things;"
"5:3 And I have caused you that you should enter into a covenant with
me, that you should not show them except to those persons to whom I
commanded you; and you have no power over them except I grant it unto
you."
"5:4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the
first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you
should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this;
for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished."
The BOC states: "and he has a gift to translate the book and I have
commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant
him no other gift."
The D&C states: "you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose
is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it
is finished."
I don't see a problem in those statements. The revelation was given
in 1829 and referred to the desire of Martin Harris to receive spiritual
confirmation (confirmation that later came when he beheld the angel
Moroni and the plates). The revelation as recorded in the 1833 BOC
states that Joseph had a gift from God to translation the plates and
that the Lord would give him no other gift. The revelation as published
in the 1835 D&C clarified the statement in the BOC, that the Lord would
give Joseph no other gift until the translation was completed.
If you study the history of the church from 1820 to 1829, there is
nothing to indicate that the Lord wanted Joseph to translate the plates
and then the Lord was finished with Joseph Smith. The history of the
church during those 9 years indicates that the Lord had a much larger
work for Joseph to perform.
When Joseph beheld the Father and the Son, he asked which church he
should join and was told to join none of the churches, for "they were
all wrong...that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight".
This implies that the Lord intended that Joseph do more than translate
the Book of Mormon.
When the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph, he said the
Priesthood would be revealed by the hand of Elijah to turn the hearts of
the children to their fathers. Again, a prophecy of a work larger in
scope than the translation of the Book of Mormon.
In February, 1829 (before the revelation that we are discussing was
given) the Lord said to Joseph Smith Senior, "Now behold a marvelous
work is about to come forth among the children of men. There, O ye that
embark in the service of God, see that ye serve him with all your heart,
might, mind and strength, that ye may stand blameless before God at the
last day". Again, a prophecy of missionary work to perform a "marvelous
work".
I don't understand why the anti-Mormon books and web sites that you
read spend so much time comparing Mormon sources to show differences
between them. You believe Joseph Smith was not a prophet. Therefore, you
have to believe that the Book of Commandments was not inspired of God.
And, you have to believe that the Doctrine of Commandments was not
inspired of God. So, the anti-Mormon sources you read are doing nothing
more than comparing two books, neither of which, from their viewpoint,
was inspired. The most they can hope to gain is to show that Joseph
Smith as a religious writer and leader was inconsistent in what he
wrote. The only way the anti-Mormon writers could use these comparisons
to show that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God would be to make the
claim that a prophet of God can not make mistakes of any kind, that a
prophet can not change his writings in any way, even to clarify meaning
when it has become clear to the prophet that people are misunderstanding
what he wrote. That is, the anti-Mormon writers would have to make the
claim that a prophet had a perfect command of language such that
everything he wrote was perfectly clear to everybody who read his
writings. In other words, the anti-Mormon writers must claim that a
prophet of God is infallible. Joseph Smith never claimed that he was
infallible. In fact, he taught that a man is a prophet only when he
speaks as a prophet, that is, he can have his own opinions about
matters. He can speak under inspiration and he can speak his own
thoughts.
>>> Doesn't it take one unfulfilled prophecy to make a false prophet?
Only if you believe that a prophet is infallible.
>>> Proverbs 30:6
>>>Do not add to His words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
You are quoting from Proverbs 30:6 to show that Joseph Smith is a
liar because he added to the Lord's word. To be consistent, you would
have to say that all of the biblical prophets who wrote their
manuscripts after Proverbs are are also liars since they added to the
Lord's word.
Of course, if the biblical prophets were true prophets then they
didn't add to to the Lord's word -- the Lord added to his own words.
Likewise, if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then he didn't add to
the Lord's word -- the Lord added to his own words. So, your use of
Proverbs 30:6 is irrelevant. |